Why couldn’t we have discovered this trajectory via computer modeling? Too computationally expensive?
SatoshiReport on
How can anyone read anything from such an ad-slop?
Eros_Incident_Denier on
so, purnell maneuver irl?
chemo92 on
To pour some cold water on this;
„However, such a trajectory would require departure speeds of around 32.5 kilometers per second, well beyond current rocket capabilities, and a spacecraft would arrive at Mars traveling around 64,800 mph (108,000 km/h) — too fast for existing landing systems to handle safely, Souza noted in the paper.“ – livescience.com
violetferns on
Well, let’s see if we manage to get a working nuclear engine by the late 2020s.
Pharisaeus on
> Astronomer Finds a Shortcut
No they didn’t. The „shortcut“ comes from crazy velocity. Basically „if you go fast, it takes less time“. Instead of doing a transfer with a wide arc, to minimize the amount of fuel needed for the trip, they just made calculations „what if we could get some crazy speed and go straight“. Not only we don’t really have the technology to launch stuff that fast, but you’d also crash into Mars at 30km/s. There is nothing „practical“ about this at all.
What the paper was actually about was using an asteroid trajectory as a template for n-body perturbations model.
ReadingTheRealms on
Astrophysicists hate this one weird trick that will get you to mars faster!
jlunsf0rd on
So it’s a nuclear-powered asteroid? Excellent, right? RIGHT??
ocw5000 on
Literally cannot read the article because the ads crash my browser. Great work everybody.
swim711crazy on
An asteroid is in interplanetary trajectory already. The problem isn’t the path, but the energy required to get on such path.
This is like saying “we found a short cut to get from NY to China, all you need is go through the Earth’s core!!”
OlympusMons94 on
This is of no practical value whatsoever for sending spacecraft to Mars, much less crewed missions. To say the least, the author of the paper has an absurdly overinflated sense of the capabilities of chemical, nuclear thermal, and near-term nuclear electric propulsion. A quick google search shows the author is a cosmologist, so a lack of knowledge of rocket propulsion capabilities isn’t shocking. But still they could have done better background research.
The Earth departure (launch) [C3 (characteristic energy)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Characteristic_energy) for the „feasible“ (the author’s word, not mine) case is about 285 km^(2)/s^(2). (A typical low energy Mars transfer has a C3 of ~8-14 km^(2)/s^(2). Solar system escape is ~153 km^(2)/s^(2). The highest C3 ever launched to was New Horizons, 157 km^(2)/s^(2).) Put another way, a C3 of 285 is over 12.3 km/s of delta-v from low Earth orbit (LEO). Launching from Earth’s surface to LEO only requires ~9.5 km/s of delta-v. A minimum energy transfer to Mars requires ~3.6-3.8 km/s from LEO. Solar system escape is ~8.8 km/s from LEO.
That insane amount of energy/delta-v is just for getting into the trajectory to take you to Mars. The resulting insane arrival velocity at Mars is far too high for aerobraking/aerocapture into orbit (or directly entry and landing), so a large rocket would have to be sent along to cancel out most of that velocity at Mars arrival. Then rinse, repeat for the journey from Mars back to Earth. That is just not feasible.
The „rapid“ case from the paper is, of course, even worse. For example, it requires an Earth departure C3 of 758 km^(2)/s^(2) (LEO + 21.9 km/s of delta-v).
Quotes from the paper:
>These values place the 33-day [„rapid“] transfer well beyond current chemical-propulsion capability and into the regime of advanced nuclear-thermal or nuclear-electric concepts.
The „rapid“ trajectory case is also well beyond the capabilities of nuclear thermal propulsion. Nuclear electric could provide the equivalent amount of delta-v–eventually (either the trip will be far longer, or not a near-term technological capability). Also, nuclear electric has very low thrust. Low thrust propulsion over a long time (resulting in an orbit that gradually spirals outward) requires an entirely different trajectory design. The trajectories this paper proposes require relatively brief, high thrust maneuvers.
>In contrast, the term “feasible” refers to rapid solutions whose C3 requirements, although high relative to classical Hohmann transfers, remain within the upper envelope of currently demonstrated or near-term chemical launch performance. The 56-day trajectory is classified as feasible under this interpretation.
Lol, no. The „feasible“ case still isn’t feasible with chemical, or nuclear thermal, or feasible nuclear electric propulsion.
emperor_dragoon on
Was that asteroid the moon? Was the purpose of the Artemis 2 to find this shortcut? Isn’t that the point of efficient space travel? I hope when we plan a trip to Mars, we are calculating for where it’s going to be and not where it is when we launch. I can only hope that we take into account the earths relative location and positioning in distance to and from Mars. Gee whis when we are closer to Mars in our orbit around the sun, we can use less fuel. This makes sense, quick someone tell the emperor of the universe I have an idea.
aztronut on
This is not how mission planning nor space navigation works, clickbait bs.
Decronym on
Acronyms, initialisms, abbreviations, contractions, and other phrases which expand to something larger, that I’ve seen in this thread:
|Fewer Letters|More Letters|
|——-|———|—|
|[C3](/r/Space/comments/1t4tz4w/stub/ok5soat „Last usage“)|[Characteristic Energy](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Characteristic_energy) above that required for escape|
|[JPL](/r/Space/comments/1t4tz4w/stub/ok6o9x0 „Last usage“)|Jet Propulsion Lab, California|
|[LEO](/r/Space/comments/1t4tz4w/stub/ok6fepu „Last usage“)|Low Earth Orbit (180-2000km)|
| |Law Enforcement Officer (most often mentioned during transport operations)|
|[NEO](/r/Space/comments/1t4tz4w/stub/ok6hraj „Last usage“)|Near-Earth Object|
|[SLS](/r/Space/comments/1t4tz4w/stub/ok6fepu „Last usage“)|Space Launch System heavy-lift|
Decronym is now also available on Lemmy! Requests for support and new installations should be directed to the Contact address below.
14 Kommentare
Why couldn’t we have discovered this trajectory via computer modeling? Too computationally expensive?
How can anyone read anything from such an ad-slop?
so, purnell maneuver irl?
To pour some cold water on this;
„However, such a trajectory would require departure speeds of around 32.5 kilometers per second, well beyond current rocket capabilities, and a spacecraft would arrive at Mars traveling around 64,800 mph (108,000 km/h) — too fast for existing landing systems to handle safely, Souza noted in the paper.“ – livescience.com
Well, let’s see if we manage to get a working nuclear engine by the late 2020s.
> Astronomer Finds a Shortcut
No they didn’t. The „shortcut“ comes from crazy velocity. Basically „if you go fast, it takes less time“. Instead of doing a transfer with a wide arc, to minimize the amount of fuel needed for the trip, they just made calculations „what if we could get some crazy speed and go straight“. Not only we don’t really have the technology to launch stuff that fast, but you’d also crash into Mars at 30km/s. There is nothing „practical“ about this at all.
What the paper was actually about was using an asteroid trajectory as a template for n-body perturbations model.
Astrophysicists hate this one weird trick that will get you to mars faster!
So it’s a nuclear-powered asteroid? Excellent, right? RIGHT??
Literally cannot read the article because the ads crash my browser. Great work everybody.
An asteroid is in interplanetary trajectory already. The problem isn’t the path, but the energy required to get on such path.
This is like saying “we found a short cut to get from NY to China, all you need is go through the Earth’s core!!”
This is of no practical value whatsoever for sending spacecraft to Mars, much less crewed missions. To say the least, the author of the paper has an absurdly overinflated sense of the capabilities of chemical, nuclear thermal, and near-term nuclear electric propulsion. A quick google search shows the author is a cosmologist, so a lack of knowledge of rocket propulsion capabilities isn’t shocking. But still they could have done better background research.
[Link to the actual paper](https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0094576526002456). In particular, see [Table 4](https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0094576526002456#tbl4).
The Earth departure (launch) [C3 (characteristic energy)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Characteristic_energy) for the „feasible“ (the author’s word, not mine) case is about 285 km^(2)/s^(2). (A typical low energy Mars transfer has a C3 of ~8-14 km^(2)/s^(2). Solar system escape is ~153 km^(2)/s^(2). The highest C3 ever launched to was New Horizons, 157 km^(2)/s^(2).) Put another way, a C3 of 285 is over 12.3 km/s of delta-v from low Earth orbit (LEO). Launching from Earth’s surface to LEO only requires ~9.5 km/s of delta-v. A minimum energy transfer to Mars requires ~3.6-3.8 km/s from LEO. Solar system escape is ~8.8 km/s from LEO.
That insane amount of energy/delta-v is just for getting into the trajectory to take you to Mars. The resulting insane arrival velocity at Mars is far too high for aerobraking/aerocapture into orbit (or directly entry and landing), so a large rocket would have to be sent along to cancel out most of that velocity at Mars arrival. Then rinse, repeat for the journey from Mars back to Earth. That is just not feasible.
The „rapid“ case from the paper is, of course, even worse. For example, it requires an Earth departure C3 of 758 km^(2)/s^(2) (LEO + 21.9 km/s of delta-v).
Quotes from the paper:
>These values place the 33-day [„rapid“] transfer well beyond current chemical-propulsion capability and into the regime of advanced nuclear-thermal or nuclear-electric concepts.
The „rapid“ trajectory case is also well beyond the capabilities of nuclear thermal propulsion. Nuclear electric could provide the equivalent amount of delta-v–eventually (either the trip will be far longer, or not a near-term technological capability). Also, nuclear electric has very low thrust. Low thrust propulsion over a long time (resulting in an orbit that gradually spirals outward) requires an entirely different trajectory design. The trajectories this paper proposes require relatively brief, high thrust maneuvers.
>In contrast, the term “feasible” refers to rapid solutions whose C3 requirements, although high relative to classical Hohmann transfers, remain within the upper envelope of currently demonstrated or near-term chemical launch performance. The 56-day trajectory is classified as feasible under this interpretation.
Lol, no. The „feasible“ case still isn’t feasible with chemical, or nuclear thermal, or feasible nuclear electric propulsion.
Was that asteroid the moon? Was the purpose of the Artemis 2 to find this shortcut? Isn’t that the point of efficient space travel? I hope when we plan a trip to Mars, we are calculating for where it’s going to be and not where it is when we launch. I can only hope that we take into account the earths relative location and positioning in distance to and from Mars. Gee whis when we are closer to Mars in our orbit around the sun, we can use less fuel. This makes sense, quick someone tell the emperor of the universe I have an idea.
This is not how mission planning nor space navigation works, clickbait bs.
Acronyms, initialisms, abbreviations, contractions, and other phrases which expand to something larger, that I’ve seen in this thread:
|Fewer Letters|More Letters|
|——-|———|—|
|[C3](/r/Space/comments/1t4tz4w/stub/ok5soat „Last usage“)|[Characteristic Energy](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Characteristic_energy) above that required for escape|
|[JPL](/r/Space/comments/1t4tz4w/stub/ok6o9x0 „Last usage“)|Jet Propulsion Lab, California|
|[LEO](/r/Space/comments/1t4tz4w/stub/ok6fepu „Last usage“)|Low Earth Orbit (180-2000km)|
| |Law Enforcement Officer (most often mentioned during transport operations)|
|[NEO](/r/Space/comments/1t4tz4w/stub/ok6hraj „Last usage“)|Near-Earth Object|
|[SLS](/r/Space/comments/1t4tz4w/stub/ok6fepu „Last usage“)|Space Launch System heavy-lift|
Decronym is now also available on Lemmy! Requests for support and new installations should be directed to the Contact address below.
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