Einige Hinweise/Gedanken in Kommentaren
Von KillJonte
Einige Hinweise/Gedanken in Kommentaren
Von KillJonte
23 Kommentare
Received a photo from a french friend who would like to date this map.
So far i’ve noticed a few things, but don’t know precisely how to date them.
– Interwarperiod cause of Poland and „USSR“ written on the minimap (2nd photo)
– There is Leningrad but apparently no Stalingrad (maybe it’s actually written but in very very small and in parenthesis, not sure)
– Moldavia seems to be an autonomous territory within Ukraine Republic? Also a weird status with Kirghizistan?
– Transcaucasia on the minimap (2nd photo) and no Georgia/Azerbaijan/Armenia SSR?
Thanks for the help, sharp eyes, and knowledge!
buy it dinner first
1926 – 1936
[deleted]
sometime in the second part of the 1930’s, i started following the publisher and map number (Carte N°34 from Vidal Lablache) – it is definitely pre-1939, i haven’t been further down that rabbit hole, but searching by publisher and Map Nr may help you get a more definitive answer.
It’s defined interwar period (look at Korea as part of Japan and the German Republic on river Volga)
Turkmenistan independent from the Russian SFSR > after 1925
No independent Abkhazia > after 1931
Kalmyk autonomous oblast (here province) >1920-1935
It would probably be from between 1931 and 1935, but I’m not an expert in any way so I may be wrong. You could check when each political subdivision existed, but keep in mind that they changed quite often in that period of Soviet history, and the map may also have been drawn based on inaccurate or already not updated information at the time of its creation. It looks like a map from a school book or an informative atlas for a wide public, so that’s not impossible at all; it may even be from an historical atlas, so it may show a situation previous to the time in which it was made
Leningrad means its after the Russian revolution. Poland holding Vilno/Vilnius puts us before WW2. So we’re in the interwar period. Manchuria is still part of China, so we’re before 1931/32. The word Iran wouldn’t have been until 1935, only Perse, which tells us that this is an anachronistic map, but that’s not a problem, of course.
Transcaucasia is shown on the map, so it must be after March 1922.
The Kirghiz ASSR exists, so we’re February 1926 or later. It’s not yet an SSR, which is consistent with being before 1931/32. Tajik, Uzbek, Turkmen, and Moldavian SSRs (very small) existing is also consistent with that. None of the ASSRs that exist tell us anything further. All changes that would be inconsistent with this map were either made before 1926 or after 1932.
We should be able say that the point in time shown on this map would have been between 1926 and 1931/32, and that it was made considerably later. However, this map shows Mongolia as a part of China, whereas the Mongolian People’s Republic was established in 1924.
Therefore, this map is inconsistent with any particular point in time and an error was made. I assume it was meant to represent some point in time after 1926, and they just forgot that Mongolia was not a part of China anymore.
1920 – 1924, Taganrog was still in Ukraine and Putivl in Russia
My take:
– 100% it is before 1939, because the western part of Ukraine and Bessarabia is not occupied by Soviets yet (they did it with the ww2 beginning and added them to Ukraine)
– Also I see that Ukraine is separated from Russia, also there are several odd territories on the USSR map, like Komy or weird shape of Kazakstan. There was a short period when they may show Ukraine as an independent country -1917-1920. After that it was all the USSR or maps with other countries too. Maybe a bit further than 1920, say several years after that, when they didn’t figure out what to do with the republics
– it can also be the time of the Civil war in Russia 1917-1922 – when there were a lot of movements and changes on the maps
You can buy a reporoduction. Trying to find the date of the original
[34bis](https://www.anciennes-cartes-scolaires.fr/cartes-murales-vintages-vidal-lablache/69-529-carte-vidal-lablache-34-bis-urss-et-finlande-politique-et-industrielle-100-x-120-cm-reproduction-ancienne-carte-scolaire-3760277446280.html)
But this dates it at 1960s?
[34bis](https://www.anciennes-cartes-scolaires.fr/cartes-murales-vintages-vidal-lablache/69-529-carte-vidal-lablache-34-bis-urss-et-finlande-politique-et-industrielle-100-x-120-cm-reproduction-ancienne-carte-scolaire-3760277446280.html)
And this seller dates it 1950s/60s
[34 bis](https://www.leselectionneur.fr/products/carte-scolaire-n-34-34bis-urss-finlande-vidal-lablache-armand-colin?srsltid=AfmBOooXNjGZ0TZ69glVQ3uR7dB8_fsK5rKRSPvPWDQBj88UfeQeAyGS&variant=39703010574515)
Just be yourself bro. Ask lots of questions and make eye contact while listening.
Focus on being genuine and honest, be an active and present listener. Clearly state your intentions and express genuine interest. Good luck, the worst that can happen is it says no!
Fort-Alexandrovski in western Kazakhstan was renamed Fort-Shevchenko in 1924. Kirghiz ASSR was renamed Kazak ASSR in 1925. The map shows both.
La carte est peu précise, difficile à dire mais je partirait sur 1925-1937 peut être plus vers le début de la période mais difficile à dire, des éléments manque pour identifier le cas tel que le tannou touva bon représenter précisément
The guy who put this together died in 1918
Are you that desperate for a date?
Lithuania annexed the Memelland in 1923 from Germany. I don’t know whether the french were so hateful they put that into maps earlier. That seems to be at least the oldest possible date represented.
Probably 1934 , considering number at far-left corner .
Russian propaganda starting to get creative
Odd that Hong Kong isn’t there. It should be for any plausible map date.
I would estimate approximately 1930
I think we’re between 3/21/1935 (when Persia changed its name to „Iran“) and 5/12/1936 (when Kazakhstan and Kirghizia were promoted from being ASSRs within Russia to being full SSRs within the Soviet Union).
Japan carved East Hebei out of China on 11/25/1935. Obviously French mapmakers wouldn’t *recognize* it, but their readers might be curious about where „Hebei“ is. So I’m leaning slightly toward the earlier end of the range.
u/AndraeFoersterWelsch points out that Kalmykia’s status within Russia changed from an AO to an ASSR on 10/22/1935. It’s listed here as a „Province“ rather than a „Republic“, which is further suggestive of being in 1935 rather than 1936.
Thursday.