Ich weiß, dass die durchschnittliche nicht irisch sprechende irische Person möglicherweise kein Problem erscheint. Aber das ist nur etwas, das ich gerne rausholen möchte.
Ulster Irish/Gaelinne Na Mumhan und Connacht Irish/Connacht. Innerhalb dieser Gruppen gibt es rund 20 separate Dialekte.
Gaeilig Uladh alias Donegal Irish: Rann Na Feirste, Baile Na Finne, Gleann Cholm Chille, Ros Goille, Gaoth Dobhair und Tóraigh (Tory ist eines der einzigartigsten Dialekte in Irland) \ t
Münster Gaelinne: Kerry – Corca Dhuibhne, Iveragh, Cork – Múscraí, Cape Clear Island und Deise
Gaeilge Chonnacht (Hier gehen wir): Galway – Cois Fharraige, Ceantar Na Naileán, Iorras Aithneach, Sheoigheach Distrikt, jederréidh na gaillimhe, árann, inis oírr (extrem nah an ausgestrahlten cellish), mayo – tourmakeady, achla, achla, achla, achla, achla, achla, achla, achla, achla, achla, achla, achla, achla, achla, achla, achla, achla, achla, achla, achla, achla, achla.
Warum sind Dialekte wichtig? Dialekte repräsentieren Jahrhunderte der sprachlichen Entwicklung durch die Erfahrung der Gemeinschaften. Jeder ist auf seine Weise einzigartig. Zum Glück haben wir heute Dinge wie TG4 und RNAG, um Sie Dialekten auszusetzen. Ich persönlich spreche 3 Dialekte und kann 19 verstehen. Dialekte veränderliche Intelligenz sind also keine schwierige Sache mehr.
Jetzt, da wir ein grundlegendes Wissen über die Dialekte der Iren haben. Weiter zum Caighdeán Oifigiúil und was aber ist.
In den 60er Jahren wurde die Caighdeán Oifigiúil geschaffen. Es wurde argumentiert, auf welchem Dialekt ihn basieren würde. Es basiert fast auf South Mayo Irish, da South Mayo Irish der engste lebende Dialekt für die Dialekte ist, die von Roscommon nach North Dublin gesprochen worden wären. Aber es basierte auf Munster Irish, wie zu dieser Zeit eine große Menge an Clare, Cork, Kerry, Waterford, Teilen von Tipperary, irisch sprach. Münster war eine irische Festung, also machte es Sinn. Derzeit ist es Conamara. Aber trotzdem. Der Caighdeán Oifigiúil wurde im ganzen Land umgesetzt. Aber es war immer nur als schriftlicher Standard gedacht. Kein gesprochener Standard. Aber leider wurde es leise als gesprochener Dialekt umgesetzt, wie Sie in Gaelscoileanna hören werden.
Warum ist das ein Problem? Ist es nicht nur gut, dass Irish überhaupt gesprochen wird? Während ja es ist. Aber der Caighdeán Oifigiúil sollte geschrieben werden. Es gibt also keine Lehre über die Aussprache. Das ist ein großes Problem. Es gibt eine massive Sprachbarriere zwischen Caighdeán -Sprechern und Gaeltacht -Sprechern in bestimmten Aussprachebereichen wie R Caol, Hard N und winzigen Dingen wie der, die einfach jede Fähigkeit zerstören, mit irgendjemandem zu kommunizieren. Aus diesem Grund hören Sie von Menschen, die irisch in die Flüssigkeit lernen, RNAG einschalten und völlig verloren sind.
Das andere Problem mit dem Caighdeán ist, dass es Wörter und Sprüche, die einzigartig für Provinzen, die keine Sprecher haben, um das Problem zu beheben, herausschreien. Warum ist das ein Problem? Stellen Sie sich vor, Ihr Kind kam von der Schule nach Hause und sprach in einem amerikanischen Akzent mit Wörtern wie Turnschuhen, Müll und anderen Wörtern, die mit amerikanischem Englisch verbunden sind. Sie würden sie korrigieren, weil wir das nicht sagen. Gleiches gilt für irische Dialekte. Wenn diese Menschen dann mit Eingeborenen ihrer Provinz interagieren, können sie sie nicht verstehen. Dies ist jedoch nicht der Schuld der Lernenden. Es ist die Schuld des Bildungssystems.
Ich weiß, dass dies so klingt, als ob es behoben werden kann, indem nur alle Dialekte sterben lassen oder die Eingeborenen gezwungen werden, Caighdeán zu verwenden. Aber wenn ich mit einer Liste von Englidh -Wörtern, die Sie verwenden mussten, in Ihrem Haus gelandet habe, weil es nicht in Schulen beigebracht wurde, würden Sie mir sagen, dass ich es abfummeln soll. Warum sollten Sie die Wörter, die Sie verwenden, aufgeben? Gleiches gilt für Gaeltacht -Leute. Es gibt eine große Menge an Erbe und lokalem Wissen in Dialekten. Jeder, der Sea Tamagotchi von Manchán Magan gelesen hat, wird dies verstehen.
Conamara ist die einzige Gaeltacht außerhalb von West Munster, die völlig immun ist. Aber alle anderen Gaeltachtaí von Waterford nach Mayo nach Donegal nehmen eine ernsthafte Schlage von der Unfähigkeit, mit L2 -Lautsprechern zu kommunizieren. Dies treibt einen Keil zwischen irischen Lernenden und Muttersprachlern an.
Ich weiß, dass viele Leute es nicht interessieren. Aber für diejenigen von Ihnen, die es tun. Erforschen Sie den Ihnen am nächsten stehenden Dialekt, lernen Sie den R CAOL und nachahmen Sie die Eingeborenen nach und Sie werden schließlich wie einer klingen. Sie können sogar Ihr eigenes Idolekt entwickeln. Am wichtigsten ist jedoch, dass Sie Jahrhunderte von Wissen und Entwicklung bewahren werden.
Bearbeiten: Ich möchte etwas hinzufügen. Nur weil du das in der Schule gelernt hast "Auf diese Weise sagen Sie es" bedeutet nicht, dass es in Stein gemeißelt ist. Taobh zum Beispiel liest jeder, der diesen Satz liest, dieses Wort anders. https://www.canuint.ie/ga/cuardach?t=taobh Hören Sie auf canúint.ie. Hör auf, den Leuten zu sagen, dass sie Dinge falsch aussprechen.
The effect An Caighdeán Oifigiúil has on dialects.
byu/Doitean-feargach555 inireland
Von Doitean-feargach555
34 Kommentare
This is well thought out, if the different dialects were thought it might make spreading, and using the language easier too.
Thanks for this, it’s so interesting. I loved Irish in school but sadly lost confidence in my ability to speak it over the years, but my sons attended a Gaelscoil and a Gaelcholáiste.
We’re from Munster. I can see exactly what you’re saying, especially turning on Nuacht and not understanding what they’re saying at all.
I’ve noticed too that accents can dramatically change pronunciations (just like any language I suppose)
We sometimes visit the North – and fair play to the people of West Belfast for having a vibrant Irish speaking community and a huge Gaelcholáiste.
The difference in pronunciation caused some comical moments – we were putting the emphasis on completely different syllables, and in completely different accents.
I’m wondering if regional accents played a role in shaping dialects, or did dialects play a role in shaping accents, even when speaking English? If that even makes any sense?
The best post I have ever had the pleasure to read on the Irish Reddit.
I was recently downvoted to hell on /r/askireland for pointing out that [Siobhán is not pronounced with a ‚v‘ sound](https://www.reddit.com/r/AskIreland/comments/1n84xz1/do_most_irish_people_know_the_pronunciation_of/nccnpv2/) outside Munster. There are a lot of people confident in the little bit that they know.
Yes! And if i could just hijack this post to say that Gaelic and Gaelig are perfectly acceptable names for the language, just because you learned Gaeilge in school doesn’t mean you should be correcting every American you see online
This is a good post. It really highlights the difficulty Irish faces if it ever hopes to be a growing, not shrinking, language.
Some more practical suggestions on how to learn an actual native dialect, as opposed to school Caighdean:
1) Radio. But the only station that reliably has actual mother tongue native speakers is RnG. Radio na Life etc have way too many Bearlachas Gaelscoil graduates. And too much English spoken. Only RnG consistently maintains a strong standard of native Irish.
2) stay well away from TikTok, YouTube etc or else be VERY discerning. Some of the biggest Irishfluencers (and I mean people with book deals etc) speak crap Irish. If you seek out someone from the dialect you’ve chosen, make sure they are genuinely from there and grew up all their life there.
I should say that while doing this is the best way to learn Irish that is genuinely Irish and not some pidgin Bearlachas “English in Irish drag”, it’s ok and honestly understandable if this is disheartening to learners.
It’s incredibly difficult to become a fluent native speaker. It takes a vast investment of time and effort and frankly, I’ve never known anyone who did it without either a) family descent (they’re the child of a native speaker growing up hearing it in an otherwise Anglophone environment) or b) physical relocation to the area it’s spoken.
It’s also counterproductive in SOME senses because one of the motivating factors of studying Irish (either at college or just to be a fluent speaker) is (or should be, for maximum effectiveness) some kind of job/employment benefit. It’s not very encouraging to say to all gaelscoil grads “you’re never going to be ideal teacher material. We don’t want you on TG4”. It feels mean!
Having said that it’s absolutely possible to improve one’s Irish and even if you don’t get to fluency you’ll be better off purely for having exercised your brain and gotten out of the house speaking to humans instead of being on a screen.
I don’t know if I really agree with parts of your premise, but this was a nice read.
I’d say the bigger issue with L2 speakers in non native areas is more the code mixing (interjecting English words into Irish). If you compare certain programs on volunteer Irish language radio stations with RnaG, you’ll hear nearly every second or third word be in English. So if you’re used to that and then switch over to RnaG, where code mixing is much rarer, it will be naturally more difficult.
This isn’t to say that code mixing is bad, natives do it all the time as well, but if you’re a learner and you just stay with what you’re comfortable with, then your level will never improve. Language learning, like any skill, needs you to push yourself in order to progress.
I’ve long been trying to learn Irish in an Ulster dialect, and have finally signed up to classes with Turas. I frequently visit Falcarragh in Donegal, so I’m hoping I’ll be intelligible there. Sadly, Glens Irish has died out, and that would have been the dialect closest to me.
Very interesting read, thanks for that. I think this is something that happens elsewhere by the way. My high level knowledge of the impact of Standardised Chinese indicates it had similar impacts on Chinese dialects.
Also just on your point about Americanisms, to be honest there are lots of those that are now essentially standard in the English spoken in Ireland that weren’t 25 years ago. e.g. people said films where they say movies now.
My (personal) theory is that we should have primary school teachers study for their degree for a full year in a gaeltacht and then we actively teach primary school students a native dialect. Ideally there would be options to choose a dialect that you connect with and that fits into your accent.
Currently we send them to Connemara for 4 weeks and then they come back and immediately switch to Conas ata tus, it’s such a waste of time
Go raibh maith agat as do phost, bhí sé suimiúil.
What accent do you suggest kids in Gaelscoil in a part of the Country where the language is dead? Say Dublin?
That’s actually why it’s very hard, if not impossible, to learn Irish effectively as a foreigner
I would like to add / emphasise that because the Caighdeán is so Munster-oriented, it alienated a lot of native speakers. Instead of finding a middle ground of Connaught Irish or something based on it, they chose a dialect from the far end of the spectrum and immediately limited the number of native speakers who could understand or meaningfully interact with it. I don’t really think it was chosen because there were so many Irish speakers in Munster either, it was more a reflection of the biases of those making the decisions at a linguistic and political level.
Interestingly, I remember reading that Donegal writer Seosamh Mac Grianna advocated for a standard that would be intelligible to speakers of Irish in Ireland and Gallic in Scotland, to create a wider base that would give the language a firmer platform against the growing influence of English etc. Not sure how it would have worked in practice though.
I’m most familiar with Donegal Irish, and I have heard the Caighdeán referred to somewhat disparagingly as school Irish, book Irish and even ‘posh’ Irish. It’s fair to say that most native Donegal speakers wouldn’t feel much affinity with it.
I think one of the by-products of the choices made about the Caighdeán is that now you have two parallel sections of Irish society who use Irish. One is (mostly) middle-class, urban and growing (the Gaelscoil movement etc.), and is based on the Caighdeán. The other, the native speakers with their regional dialects, is in decline.
Anyway, that’s my stream of consciousness on the matter. I shall go to work now. Thank you for your post.
Listen up kids, posts like this just underline the purity of essence that is required to speak Irish. Either you got it in your wheelhouse or don’t even think about using words you are not qualified to appreciate fall out of your mouth, pig-rustling ladder-thieves.
Very interesting and I agree it’s a shame that so much of it is being lost. But from a practical and pragmatic point of view I just don’t see it as feasible in some parts of what you’re saying outside of asking people to take personal responsibility to learn their local dialect.
For example, if you insisted that teachers in Gaelscoileanna all teach in the schools local dialect I think you’d very much struggle to staff those schools adequately. From what I understand they struggle as it is. And if there was no spoken standard you could have 17 teachers all using different dialects which isn’t fair on students. In trying to regrow the language in the context of life in Ireland it’s very much one of those “perfection is the enemy of good” things.
On the other hand there’s so much that could be done from like funding research in the aid of preserving written and oral sources of the dialects and ensuring there’s public access to them to aid people in learning different dialects so that there’s a chance of the dialects at least growing back in the future.
Yeah it’s not too hard to do once you lean on a community, the Celtic Languages Discord I think is good for looking for resources for self-study.
I’d be an example of a guy who’s going for Déise Irish outside of Waterford, although I started by looking at Muscraí/Corca Dhuibhne…the book I have does contain a map with my town on it so it’s as local as I can get, and the local Irish probably was some mix of those anyway.
My own little thing was starting to write Irish in the seanchló, even got a font on the PC.
On another note I think being properly bilingual from a young age could help with learning other languages in the future maybe.
Agree 100% on everything you say but, honestly, Irish is dead if there isn’t a unified language taught to non native speakers
Suimiúil!
I always thought South Mayo/Roscommon was the standard, because that’s the one Douglas Hyde had. But this could be from my little bubble of a national school in a breac-Gaeltacht in that area in the 80s. My mother tells me I came home from school in an almighty huff on the first day of High Infants, because the new teacher was from Cork and „she says everything wrong“. I remember really disliking the soft „d“ before „i“ and „e“ – it was so unsatisfying, and I would respond „Dia’s Muire dhuit“ with full gutteral force!
Very interesting that there’s different dialects across the north west, is there a list anywhere of different words? What makes Ranafast different from Gweedore, for example?
This comes up every so often and I don’t think it stands up to the slightest scrutiny.
The Caighdeán is still a written standard. Specifically its a grammar and spelling standard. Nobody created a standard language for Gaeilscoileanna and the way irish is being spoken outside gaeltachtaí is not hurting gaeltachtaí. Kids who go to school in a Gaeilscoil learn from teachers from diverse backgrounds. Your assertion that there is some link between the C.O. and how kids speak Irish in gaeilscoileanna outside the gaeltacht is an artefact of internet discussion, it’s not real.
If it’s not acceptable to tell people in a Gaeltacht to use a load of words they don’t use (a thing that isn’t actually happening) then it’s also not acceptable to tell people who’ve spoken the language in school or even at home outside the Gaeltacht what words they should use. Is it possible that the acceptable „fuck off“ could be directed at you? Also, the C.O. doesn’t dictate what words to use.
Your idea that you just speak the closest Gaeltacht dialect geographically to you means telling everyone Dublin they need now speak Connemara dialect in order to speak Irish. That’s a bit skew surely? What about all the people in Dublin who speak Donegal or Cork Irish? What about people who spoke Irish all their lives and didn’t learn it in one of the extant gaeltachtaí? „Sorry you speak the wrong kind of Irish, go speak a pure dialect of gaelic gaeilge for gaelic gaels“. Flann O’Brien had those cards marked 75 years ago.
But the part of you post that I’m really struggling with is that there is a suggestion that because of word selection or pronounciation of certain phonemes that School Irish is not mutually intelligible with Gaeltacht Irish. The extension of that is that Dialects are not mutually intelligible. That is patently absurd. That slender r in Connacht is as different from Muskerry as it is from any school in the country. I speak English every work day with people who use phonemes that do not exist in English (and at least as different as the consonant examples you posted) and nobody’s ability to communicate is destroyed. I don’t believe for one second that Irish is as brittle a communication medium as people such as yourself make it out to be.
The reason gaeltact dialects are under pressure is NOT the C.O. it’s economics. People who would live there can’t get jobs and can’t get a house there because all the houses are holiday homes of wealthy people in nearby cities. The problem in An Rinn is the road from waterford, not how kids in Gaeilscoil in Waterford speak the language.
An-suimiúl ar fad. Grma 👏👏👏
No i absolutely care and this is a great post. Having gone to Gaelscoil and Gaelcholaiste, I was taught School Irish. I got very little exposure to the natural dialects even of my own county of Kerry.
I think one of the reasons is because nowadays, most of the teachers in these schools are not native speakers themselves but rather people who learnt School Irish themselves.
While Irish may not die out, the variety of the language may.
Learning any language to fluency is an enormous undertaking, and trying to incorporate every dialectical quirk into any curriculum is an impossible task.
I learned Finnish to fluency as an adult and Finnish learning has a similar structure where different regions speak widely different dialects of Finnish but everyone studies the centralised, “book” version of the language.
While it is annoying to basically feel like a complete beginner when you speak to a native after 1 year+ of intensive learning, it’s frankly impossible for any generalised curriculum to account for every region’s dialectical differences.
The learner has to understand that the language courses they study in formal settings only serve as a basic, foundational introduction to the language. Even, say, the Higher Level leaving cert paper. Learning a language like Irish requires lifelong application and curiosity, there’s no way to adjust the curriculum to fix that.
Think the post is interesting but as a speaker from Donegal I’d push back on the idea that Munster Irish is unintelligible to me. I’m not used to it and if I meet someone from Kerry it might take a minute for my ear to tune in but we’re speaking the same language at the end of the day.
In terms of the Gaeilscoileanna, it’s only one situation but my nephews are in one in Dublin. The older lad pronounces dearg like the C.O, and it’s a running joke that he corrects us when we say it. But the young fella just went to the same school and has a teacher from Donegal, so he’s pronouncing things with our dialect and he’s been saying dearg with the j sound like home.
So I’m not sure the C.O is the automatic teaching standard, surely it’s teacher dependent?
Tbh part of the problem with Irish was always the desperation to preserve. A standard form was a sneaky way of undermining that.
The real problem now is there are probably more Irish speakers who learned at Gaelscoileanna than in a Gaeltacht. Ultimately they will define how the language is spoken.
Thanks for making this post
Also, an caighdeán oifigiúil has brought in a great number of words and constructions based on English, where there would have been better options based on Irish (or even Irish words already existing in one or more of the dialects).
If I were to attempt to learn mayo dialect for example , without having the resourses for immersion or online classes where would I start?
Local accents in English are disappearing too, I don’t see how Irish has much chance of preserving regional dialects. You’d be doing well to have young people using it at all in day to day life.
But yes, as someone who can understand Connaught Irish and watch about 60-70% of TG4/RNG, being among a room of Dublin neo-gaeilgóirs was a trip. Gaeilge in a D4 accent. Strange, harsh pronunciations, everything sharp annunciation like a BBC shipping report. Good Irish should flow like water, few hard stops, lots of rich throaty currents.
I’ve been wondering for some time if we might just have to start regarding the Caighdeán Oifigiúil as a native dialect given how many people describing themselves as „fluent“ (and I have no reason to doubt them) and even some people who say Irish is their first language, use it.
There are very few precedents, but this kind of thing has happened before, where a specific neutral / compromise dialect was used to teach people a language which then ended up being the dialect they spoke fluently (maybe Tagalog in the Philippines, although some of those people still code-switch a bit).
If you’re teaching a language to people who don’t speak it, you don’t have a choice. You have to pick the most neutral? or the easiest? or the best? or a compromise? version of the language and run with it.
I remember the first time I landed in Paris and tried to talk to people in what I have been assured by the Leaving Cert was A-level French. I’m sure most of us have had an experience like that. You end up using what you learned and tooling the „real“ French they speak in France around it.
I’m sure that would happen if fluent Irish speakers spent more time in the Gaeltacht. But they generally don’t, so is it just a new native dialect?
I was confused for a second as I thought you were saying massive amounts of Munster were Irish-speaking in the 60s
Good on you for making this post here!
I 100% agree with you on the importance of dialects as someone who’s been actively studying Irish dialectology and phonology, they’re a reflection of the linguistic diversity of our language and the death of dialects would be an immense loss to our language and culture, Irish would only be a shell of itself. I am also very critical of how the Caighdeán was developed, it definitely needs to be reworked (I’m not sure how realistic that would be today but one can hope). When it comes to your point on the barrier between Gaeltacht and Caighdeán speakers‘ pronunciation, I think it extends to most sounds to be honest as most of them are mispronounced (think of long vowels like é, ó, ú being pronounced ay, ow, ew, very off compared to native Irish pronunciation, or not only the r caol as mentioned but also r leathan, or even other broad vs slender consonants).
Just a little pedantic note, the Déise dialect is comprised of Waterford and until a couple decades ago South Tipperary, the very north east past of Cork and parts of East Limerick, it did not extend to South Dublin. In Kilkenny, Laois and Carlow, Ossory Irish was spoken, it was a Connacht-like dialect with lots of Munster/Déise influence the further south you went, with some Ulster features even. Wexford, Wicklow, Kildare and most of Dublin were even more Connacht-like, with some Munster and Ulster features as well as many unique features.
When my children went to school here in Co. Cork they told me that I „talked like the CD“. The teacher was using audio material produced by TG4 in Connemara and I’m from west Galway.