Was „Constantinopolitan“ really the demonym for people from Constantinople?
Jehan_Templar on
Greece missed the opportunity of its history with the stupid following invasion of Turkey.
shplarggle on
Would have caused less war and killings??
sean-culottes on
I don’t hate it
TyphoonOfEast on
Our will defeated colonial powers combined, fuck colonial powers who divide nations and creating endless wars while they sit back and and profit
_CHIFFRE on
don’t think i ever heard of this, thanks for sharing.
Jediuzzaman on
SSCB heading to Palestine, ez map.
levenspiel_s on
Ottoman rulers were fine with this, the sultan didn’t give a shit, but Atatürk said „Yeah. No.“
Also, this was enacted in Sevres. Not just a plan. That also shows you why an insignificant town in the middle of Anatolia, Ankara, is the capital of modern Turkey.
Individual-Pin-5064 on
I never really understood why the same wasn’t done to Persia? The allies (Britain and USSR) already had Balouchestan, Azerbaijan and Kurdistan occupied in 1917, all they had to do was to set up Republics and monitor central Persia and Afghanistan.
Also Persia had tons of oil in Ahwaz and Khuzestan.
Certain_Refuse_8247 on
Atatürk: Not on my watch!
-Acta-Non-Verba- on
Not a bad plan, but it needs an independent Lebanon. Those Christians need to be protected by having their own state.
ilikedota5 on
At this point, the Americans were seen as the better option, because there were no American colonies, unlike Britain and France. Originally, this was supposed to be a joint venture between Italy, UK, USA, and France. But the others were worried about optics and got cold feet. Also USA figured out France and UK already made their own backroom deals. So the Americans went alone.
After WWI, self determination was allegedly the principle. So that meant dismantling of empire (in theory). Colonies were going to be freed, which would happen no matter what. The Middle East had been controlled on paper by the Ottoman Empire, although the French and British were increasingly involved.
Two people sent went Charles Richard Crane, a businessman, diplomat, and Arabist and Henry Churchill King, an educator, college president, and Christian theologian. The locals reasoned, Britain and France won’t listen to us, the Americans are willing to listen, maybe Britain and France might listen to the Americans.
The goal of the commission was simple, travel there and conduct interviews to find ‚the state of opinion there with regard to [the post-Ottoman Middle East], and the social, racial, and economic conditions.“ They were to present their findings and make recommendations on behalf of the people there.
King and Crane were actually pretty warmly received by the locals, because they came in as genuinely curious diplomats who wanted to learn and talk. They give a list of demands/concerns to them…. Because they thought they might listen. And King and Crane did listen, but their report was thoroughly ignored and buried for 3 years. They preferred the Americans because well, their impression of the Americans were pretty good, (this was the first experience they had), they would have preferred American assistance in self determination than British or French. Think about it, America talks about self determination, then sends two diplomats to talk to you guys about what that looks like. So America says, „lets do this good thing“ then takes steps to do that good thing.
So despite the diversity… the peoples of modern day Syria, Palestine, Israel, Jordan, Lebanon all wanted to stay together. Because Greater Syria, province of Ottoman Empire was still a thing, and they rather all be in the same boat with their neighbors and not divided up. If you asked those people today if they wanted to be together now vs not, I think you’d get a different response because of different history and ideology.
Their warnings? “The Zionist program… could not be carried out except by force, in disregard of the will of the present inhabitants.“ Demographic conflict and political resistance, both sides would feel existential threats. They said „that only a greatly reduced Zionist program be attempted by the Peace Conference, and even that, only very gradually initiated.“ Carving up Lebanon like the French wanted would intensify sectarianism. Dividing Greater Syria would create decades of conflict, because minority enclaves and Europeans pitting groups against each other. European mandates conflicted with self-determination, because the Europeans would undermine/overshadow any chance at democracy, and there would be a legitimacy issue. They predicted that ignoring local opinion would invalidate the peace settlement because illegitimacy, violence and instability would follow.
zedascouves1985 on
In this timeline Turkey joins Germany to reacquire lost territory, right?
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inaccurate
Anti-Semitic plan !!!
Is this real
Was „Constantinopolitan“ really the demonym for people from Constantinople?
Greece missed the opportunity of its history with the stupid following invasion of Turkey.
Would have caused less war and killings??
I don’t hate it
Our will defeated colonial powers combined, fuck colonial powers who divide nations and creating endless wars while they sit back and and profit
don’t think i ever heard of this, thanks for sharing.
SSCB heading to Palestine, ez map.
Ottoman rulers were fine with this, the sultan didn’t give a shit, but Atatürk said „Yeah. No.“
Also, this was enacted in Sevres. Not just a plan. That also shows you why an insignificant town in the middle of Anatolia, Ankara, is the capital of modern Turkey.
I never really understood why the same wasn’t done to Persia? The allies (Britain and USSR) already had Balouchestan, Azerbaijan and Kurdistan occupied in 1917, all they had to do was to set up Republics and monitor central Persia and Afghanistan.
Also Persia had tons of oil in Ahwaz and Khuzestan.
Atatürk: Not on my watch!
Not a bad plan, but it needs an independent Lebanon. Those Christians need to be protected by having their own state.
At this point, the Americans were seen as the better option, because there were no American colonies, unlike Britain and France. Originally, this was supposed to be a joint venture between Italy, UK, USA, and France. But the others were worried about optics and got cold feet. Also USA figured out France and UK already made their own backroom deals. So the Americans went alone.
After WWI, self determination was allegedly the principle. So that meant dismantling of empire (in theory). Colonies were going to be freed, which would happen no matter what. The Middle East had been controlled on paper by the Ottoman Empire, although the French and British were increasingly involved.
Two people sent went Charles Richard Crane, a businessman, diplomat, and Arabist and Henry Churchill King, an educator, college president, and Christian theologian. The locals reasoned, Britain and France won’t listen to us, the Americans are willing to listen, maybe Britain and France might listen to the Americans.
The goal of the commission was simple, travel there and conduct interviews to find ‚the state of opinion there with regard to [the post-Ottoman Middle East], and the social, racial, and economic conditions.“ They were to present their findings and make recommendations on behalf of the people there.
King and Crane were actually pretty warmly received by the locals, because they came in as genuinely curious diplomats who wanted to learn and talk. They give a list of demands/concerns to them…. Because they thought they might listen. And King and Crane did listen, but their report was thoroughly ignored and buried for 3 years. They preferred the Americans because well, their impression of the Americans were pretty good, (this was the first experience they had), they would have preferred American assistance in self determination than British or French. Think about it, America talks about self determination, then sends two diplomats to talk to you guys about what that looks like. So America says, „lets do this good thing“ then takes steps to do that good thing.
So despite the diversity… the peoples of modern day Syria, Palestine, Israel, Jordan, Lebanon all wanted to stay together. Because Greater Syria, province of Ottoman Empire was still a thing, and they rather all be in the same boat with their neighbors and not divided up. If you asked those people today if they wanted to be together now vs not, I think you’d get a different response because of different history and ideology.
Their warnings? “The Zionist program… could not be carried out except by force, in disregard of the will of the present inhabitants.“ Demographic conflict and political resistance, both sides would feel existential threats. They said „that only a greatly reduced Zionist program be attempted by the Peace Conference, and even that, only very gradually initiated.“ Carving up Lebanon like the French wanted would intensify sectarianism. Dividing Greater Syria would create decades of conflict, because minority enclaves and Europeans pitting groups against each other. European mandates conflicted with self-determination, because the Europeans would undermine/overshadow any chance at democracy, and there would be a legitimacy issue. They predicted that ignoring local opinion would invalidate the peace settlement because illegitimacy, violence and instability would follow.
In this timeline Turkey joins Germany to reacquire lost territory, right?